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	<title>Comments for Do the Math</title>
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	<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math</link>
	<description>Using physics and estimation to assess energy, growth, options—by Tom Murphy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 07 Jun 2013 02:16:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by tmurphy</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9650</link>
		<dc:creator>tmurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jun 2013 02:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Yes, the scenario you illuminate exhibits thermodynamic properties of a system with static constraints.  The fluid medium provides random motive mechanism to move the atoms around.  The two separated ions will mix, and will not spontaneously evolve to an equilibrium in which they remain separated.  Thermodynamic entropy is at play, and the Second Law governs.  Note the elements present in this example that were missing in the salt/coffee grains example: motive mechanism; microstates; fixed constraints; ensemble of possibilities explored by thermal jostling on a relevant timescale.

I also agree with the CO2 statement (akin to my rule in the post that we only get to derive energy from burning fossil fuels once).  These atomic-scale rearrangements change the way thermal energy can be stored into microstates (thermodynamic entropy) in a way that disordered books and papers in a room certainly do not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the scenario you illuminate exhibits thermodynamic properties of a system with static constraints.  The fluid medium provides random motive mechanism to move the atoms around.  The two separated ions will mix, and will not spontaneously evolve to an equilibrium in which they remain separated.  Thermodynamic entropy is at play, and the Second Law governs.  Note the elements present in this example that were missing in the salt/coffee grains example: motive mechanism; microstates; fixed constraints; ensemble of possibilities explored by thermal jostling on a relevant timescale.</p>
<p>I also agree with the CO2 statement (akin to my rule in the post that we only get to derive energy from burning fossil fuels once).  These atomic-scale rearrangements change the way thermal energy can be stored into microstates (thermodynamic entropy) in a way that disordered books and papers in a room certainly do not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by Gerald Monroe</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9646</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jun 2013 17:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Biological example : suppose the salt and pepper are both water soluble.  I know that pepper isn&#039;t, so substitue another salt for the pepper in this example.  

Now, I have a bag full of salt (NaCl) and a bag full of another salt (suppose it&#039;s KCl).  I have a semi-permeable membrane between the bags.  I built a molecular sieve using nanotechnology (meaning I borrow from nature the coding sequence for an ion channel and insert the relevant gene in an e-coli or some other host to manufacture it) that only allows potassium through to the bag containing sodium, and only allows sodium through to the bag containing potassium.  I built this sieve to extract energy from the process of the ions flowing through the gradient.  

Since the situation starts with one bag containing no sodium, and the other containing no potassium, I can extract useful work from this process.  Second law means that if I want to reverse this situation, I have to pay a MINIMUM energy cost to reverse this situation equal to the useful work extracted from the process.

This is the same example as you gave above.  If it isn&#039;t the Second Law causing this situation, what is?

This is why we cannot remove the CO2 in the atmosphere and trap it permanently in hydrocarbons again without paying AT LEAST the energy cost of all that energy we obtained from burning hydrocarbons in the first place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biological example : suppose the salt and pepper are both water soluble.  I know that pepper isn&#8217;t, so substitue another salt for the pepper in this example.  </p>
<p>Now, I have a bag full of salt (NaCl) and a bag full of another salt (suppose it&#8217;s KCl).  I have a semi-permeable membrane between the bags.  I built a molecular sieve using nanotechnology (meaning I borrow from nature the coding sequence for an ion channel and insert the relevant gene in an e-coli or some other host to manufacture it) that only allows potassium through to the bag containing sodium, and only allows sodium through to the bag containing potassium.  I built this sieve to extract energy from the process of the ions flowing through the gradient.  </p>
<p>Since the situation starts with one bag containing no sodium, and the other containing no potassium, I can extract useful work from this process.  Second law means that if I want to reverse this situation, I have to pay a MINIMUM energy cost to reverse this situation equal to the useful work extracted from the process.</p>
<p>This is the same example as you gave above.  If it isn&#8217;t the Second Law causing this situation, what is?</p>
<p>This is why we cannot remove the CO2 in the atmosphere and trap it permanently in hydrocarbons again without paying AT LEAST the energy cost of all that energy we obtained from burning hydrocarbons in the first place.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by Luis García</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9640</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis García</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jun 2013 20:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/?p=1379#comment-9640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m curious here too. How can be those schemes that can do the re-sorting with almost no energy? I guess that a good reference to compare would be the energy needed to do the mixing. &quot;Almost no energy&quot; in this case should be no (much) more energy than that one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious here too. How can be those schemes that can do the re-sorting with almost no energy? I guess that a good reference to compare would be the energy needed to do the mixing. &#8220;Almost no energy&#8221; in this case should be no (much) more energy than that one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by A</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9627</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jun 2013 02:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/?p=1379#comment-9627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mammals typical body temperature is in the 36 - 38 C range, birds are in the 40 - 42 C range. Both classes have exceptions: various species have inactivity or hibernation modes where metabolism and thus body temperature drops.

Other lifeforms stay at or slightly above room temperature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mammals typical body temperature is in the 36 &#8211; 38 C range, birds are in the 40 &#8211; 42 C range. Both classes have exceptions: various species have inactivity or hibernation modes where metabolism and thus body temperature drops.</p>
<p>Other lifeforms stay at or slightly above room temperature.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by Tony Noerpel</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9625</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Noerpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2013 16:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[maybe talking about exergy is better.  That gets used up (as entopy increases?).  But isn&#039;t that a property of the second law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>maybe talking about exergy is better.  That gets used up (as entopy increases?).  But isn&#8217;t that a property of the second law.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by tmurphy</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9624</link>
		<dc:creator>tmurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2013 15:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Most lifeforms on the planet don&#039;t happen to sit at this magic 37 deg (need to check its specialness out), including successful beasts like cockroaches and ants that will surely outlast our fragile species.  I doubt humans (or any 37 degree animal) would be considered to be minimal energy machines, in any case (even scaled to mass, area, or whatever metric).  Could be wrong, but all this smacks of our usual conceit of elevating humankind to some sort of cosmic perfection.  I know we&#039;re proud of ourselves, but does it really bear out?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most lifeforms on the planet don&#8217;t happen to sit at this magic 37 deg (need to check its specialness out), including successful beasts like cockroaches and ants that will surely outlast our fragile species.  I doubt humans (or any 37 degree animal) would be considered to be minimal energy machines, in any case (even scaled to mass, area, or whatever metric).  Could be wrong, but all this smacks of our usual conceit of elevating humankind to some sort of cosmic perfection.  I know we&#8217;re proud of ourselves, but does it really bear out?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by tmurphy</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9623</link>
		<dc:creator>tmurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2013 15:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The problem is that on many of these items, the second law is silent, because the thermodynamic entropy is barely budged, if at all, by many of these activities.  And even when the second law does apply, things can (theoretically) be patched up nicely with a bit of energy input, and the second law is fine.  So irreversibility is rendered mute with a bit of energy input, on theoretical grounds.

I&#039;m fully sympathetic to the real practicalities of marshaling scattered or disordered resources.  But my main point is that nine times out of ten, the second law should be left out of the argument.  It&#039;s just not that spooky.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that on many of these items, the second law is silent, because the thermodynamic entropy is barely budged, if at all, by many of these activities.  And even when the second law does apply, things can (theoretically) be patched up nicely with a bit of energy input, and the second law is fine.  So irreversibility is rendered mute with a bit of energy input, on theoretical grounds.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m fully sympathetic to the real practicalities of marshaling scattered or disordered resources.  But my main point is that nine times out of ten, the second law should be left out of the argument.  It&#8217;s just not that spooky.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by Tony Noerpel</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9621</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Noerpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2013 13:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Tom, is this better?

A narrative has developed around this theme that we take in low entropy energy (solar photons, gravitational energy, stored solar energy in chemical bonds and radioactive decay of stellar products) and emit a high entropy wake of waste (infrared photons, smaller molecules, lighter fission products). That life displays marvelous order (is a dissipative system far from thermodynamic equilibrium) — permitted by continuous feeding of this low entropy energy (if we stop eating exergy we die but we also die eventually because the genetic material which drives the continual reconstruction and repair deteriorates) — while death (inevitable) and decay represent higher entropy (not to the bacteria which feed on us causing the decay)  end (not really end states but just some other states) states. That we extract low entropy concentrations of materials (ores) from the ground (concentrated by the interplay between the four fundamental forces and available energy), then disperse the contents around the world in a higher entropy arrangement (less exergy). The Second Law (tells us that these processes are irreversible) warns that there is no going back: at least not without substantial infusion of energy.(all the energy in the universe cannot reconstruct Napoleon from the scattered bits, could it?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, is this better?</p>
<p>A narrative has developed around this theme that we take in low entropy energy (solar photons, gravitational energy, stored solar energy in chemical bonds and radioactive decay of stellar products) and emit a high entropy wake of waste (infrared photons, smaller molecules, lighter fission products). That life displays marvelous order (is a dissipative system far from thermodynamic equilibrium) — permitted by continuous feeding of this low entropy energy (if we stop eating exergy we die but we also die eventually because the genetic material which drives the continual reconstruction and repair deteriorates) — while death (inevitable) and decay represent higher entropy (not to the bacteria which feed on us causing the decay)  end (not really end states but just some other states) states. That we extract low entropy concentrations of materials (ores) from the ground (concentrated by the interplay between the four fundamental forces and available energy), then disperse the contents around the world in a higher entropy arrangement (less exergy). The Second Law (tells us that these processes are irreversible) warns that there is no going back: at least not without substantial infusion of energy.(all the energy in the universe cannot reconstruct Napoleon from the scattered bits, could it?)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by Charley Bowman</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9615</link>
		<dc:creator>Charley Bowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2013 03:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The heat capacity of water is itself a minimum at body temperature (~ 37 deg C), and the heat capacity of water increases on either side of 37 deg C. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html

Human life happens when the &quot;pockets&quot; are shallowest, and &quot;microscopic modes of motion&quot; are relatively few in water.  The energy cost of keeping a body at 37 is minimal, and the free energy available to make proteins/DNA etc maximal.

Then there&#039;s the extremophiles...

Thanks for the great post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The heat capacity of water is itself a minimum at body temperature (~ 37 deg C), and the heat capacity of water increases on either side of 37 deg C. <a href="http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html</a></p>
<p>Human life happens when the &#8220;pockets&#8221; are shallowest, and &#8220;microscopic modes of motion&#8221; are relatively few in water.  The energy cost of keeping a body at 37 is minimal, and the free energy available to make proteins/DNA etc maximal.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the extremophiles&#8230;</p>
<p>Thanks for the great post.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Elusive Entropy by A</title>
		<link>http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2013/05/elusive-entropy/#comment-9606</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/?p=1379#comment-9606</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t really understand what you have in mind, but it seems that you are describing a completely deterministic process.
Deterministic processes have zero informational entropy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really understand what you have in mind, but it seems that you are describing a completely deterministic process.<br />
Deterministic processes have zero informational entropy.</p>
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